Category: Animal House
This randomly came into my head and i figured i would post it here. Its pretty
self explanatory, but is there anything you wish you knew before you got a
guide dog? Is there anything you wish you had been taught?
That's a really good question. The only thing that leaps to mind is that I wish I'd
been taught how to look for some of the more common ailments, and how to
treat them at home, so I wouldn't have to go to the vet for simple things. Other
than that I can't think of anything.
Depends what you mean.
I wish I'd known the reality of it, how this changes the way people will treat you and respond to you in the street. It was a big adjustment.
Nothing comes to mind from my end, but a few people have said to me that the guide dog schools should be telling the handlers from training about how they've got to be prepared for when their dog retires and/or dies due to sickness etc. I don't agree with this logic as it's logical in my opinion but perhaps some people don't think of that aspect at the end. My argument to that is who would when they're about to get a dog.
I think grief is something that they couldn't really prepare you for but yes, it is something that naturally will happen depending on the bond etc.
No, I think the aspect they should emphasize is the cost involved, when a dog gets older and sick. Few people think to plan for that inevitable difficulty, and it adds to grief if you are stressed about the financial hardships, or feel you can't give your dog the full treatment they need.
I agree with Cody. TSE taught me a lot, and they even go over when your dog needs to retire things, but I felt like they didn't properily teach me some things. Sure I knew how to check ears, give medicine etc, but I just wish they gave us more than just an hour lecture on health stuff.
I don’t have a guide dog but seeing how you can get attached and they are like family members to you guys, there should be some way to get some affordable health insurance for the dogs. Like if someone is working they should be able to put them on their health insurance at work or something. I feel like the farm that trains these dogs should have put something in place by now.
lol, you posted that twice, darkness. :d I don't have a guide dog either, but
yeah, did a whole research on the subject at hand.
Lol Sia Fan BP just don't know what I am doing, that's why I don't do much on here. Just for you I won't post this twice!!
i'm getting my guide dog in January, but from having dogs as pets, there is
animal health inssurance
In short, I wish I'd known the cons of having a dog. I was basically pressured to get one by anyone from my mobility instructor, family, and even sighted friends when I graduated high school. I'd grown up with dogs as pets all my life, so naively thought I knew about dogs and would be prepared for having a guide. To say I was wrong is to put it mildly, and the schools sure didn't educate me about the cons of having a guide dog. Then again, no one did. When I'd ask about cons, they were glossed over, oh, if you're used to dogs, you'll do fine. I didn't know hardly any other blind people at the time, or maybe I could have learned more about the reality of having a dog. As it was, I seriously wish someone would have described things such as:
how I would be treated differently by people, getting constantly upstaged by my dog, how even what I would have considered a short trip would involve packing food, bowls, baggies, toys, etc. How even after I was tired from a day of college classes and needed to get my homework and studying done, my dog would have tons of energy, need to play, need my attention, need to be just a pet and do pet things. I heard how great dog travel was compared to cane travel, in that it's faster and more fluid, but I never heard anything about the changes in how I'd perceive the world around me, how I'd orient myself, find objects I needed to find, and the general huge adjustment the switch would be even from a mobility standpoint. Good ways to deal with strangers who wanted to feed my dog, pet my dog, say I was abusing my dog when they saw me give a standard correction. See, as I said, the cons. As it turned out, having a dog did not work out for me. I still love them as pets, but a guide is not for me.
I want a guide dog but then... it's too much responsibility. I'm very good with
my cane though. I'm used to traveling with it so when and if I ever get a
guide dog, well, I have to get used to traveling with a dog and not with my
cane.
from reading this, i feel that i'm pretty ready. The instructor actually went
though everything in post 11. He wanted to make sure i could handle the
energy level, planning and social changes. Then again, i think the social thing
depends on where you live, just my untested opinion though
No, no it definitely doesn't.
People will approach you. People will want to touch your dog. People will want to talk to you about your dog.
You will become a meaningless existance attached to the handle of that harness.
They will ignore your authority as a dog handler, to them, your no, you can't touch my dog, means nothing.
This isn't everyone, but it happens more frequently than anyone would like.
that's the way it is for me no matter what. And the other thing is that around
here, no one knows what a cane is, but if you have a guide dog, they
understand your blind.
Honestly, you have no idea. And I'm not trying to be a dick, I didn't until I got a dog.
People will undermine your authority constantly, feeding it, grabbing it, petting the dog when you say no. And this can put you in really dangerous situations. I have had people call to my dog when we are in the middle of a road, trying to get her to come. And the thing is, people can yell to us as blind people, and they do, and we can ignore it.
But when you have that extra responsibility, you are ignoring this yourself and then also having to say no to your dog.
And feeding a dog can be really bad for it obviously, depending on what they give.
Not only is it that people have no respect for you, it's that this can leading to not only harming you, but the dog as well.
It's a whole different dimention to being a cane user. Because people will get angry and offended at you when you tell them they can't touch the dog, and they'll do it anyway.
i know what your saying. I don't think i'm expressing it the right way though.
Ah yes, my Aunty continues to "feel sorry" for my dogs and will always drop food when we're in their presence. We've told her time and time again; talk about disrespectful.
I agree with Holly here. You think you know until you have to deal with it. I've had people yell across the street at me to stop abusing my dog when I correct her. I've also had to deal with another person across a parking lot do this too. You can prepare of course, but reality really sets in when you have the dog. good luck.
Small suggestion, because unfortunately, Scarlet is absolutely correct about people undermining you, as a dog handler. But re the problem of people calling to your dog, if you aren't bold enough or comfortable enough just saying, I don't give out my dog's name, she's working!--you can give your dog a street name. If people ask, my pup's name is Marie, even though her name is nothing even close to Marie, in reality. That way, they can babble their fool heads off, and she won't react to the name.
That won't mean she won't respond to the cheery baby-talk people do, or but it helps, a little.
i like that suggestion. But th the ones saying i don't know what its like, i never
claimed to. However, i have seen it happen yet, to the point that i was accused
to letting my friend abuse his dog and hitting the dog with my cane when it
didn't do what it was supposed to even though i wasn't even near the person
and didn't even know they existed.
I've also heard instructors suggest that; some people give their dogs a fake name to the public.
'You will become a meaningless existance attached to the handle of that harness.'
That is the exact reason I probably won't ever get a dog. Understandably, some have it a little better than others, but that issue will always hang abuv you, waiting to clame you in a moment of weakness. Me and thick skins are rarely friends. The life I lead definitely favours a cane.
Honestly, I don't see this is such the big deal so many of you say it is. Who cares what some stranger thinks, and that their only interest, passing interest, at that, is in your dog, and not you? (The same stranger could ask a stupid cane-related question, and move on. I think this is more an issue that blindness is the curiosity, not specifically the dog.) You will never see that random person again, probably. Your friends and family won't view you and the dog this way.
I'm with Violet on this; Who gives any sort at all? I certainly don't.
I could never ever go back to the cane now.
I have gotten people who ask me about my dog, then go on with stories about so-and-so who had a dog that looked just like mine, yada yada yada. Man, is that awkward or what? lol what do they want me to say?
as for the original poster's question about what I wish I had been taught? Well, I can't say I have an actual response, but I do agree with the folks who have said they wished we were taught more about how to ttreat simple ailments at home.
This upstaging isn't confined to dogs. If you have a child, you'll experience the same thing, I'm sure. Kids are cute, and dogs are adorable and uncommon, in public, so they will always attract attention.
I am often equal parts irritated, and pleased to have my girl admired. It can be irksome, yeah, but ultimately, doesn't matter, if you love the puppy. And maybe that's the crux of this discussion, people who view a dog as primarily a mobility aid and a series of extra chores to be dealt with, which they hadn't foreseen, beforehand, rather than a beloved family member. Those people probably should not get a guide dog, and in case I'm offending someone, I don't mean to! Knowing what you can and cannot cope with is a strength.
I guess I was just expressing some amazement that anyone would feel this is a strong reason not to have a guide.
Reyami, oh yes, I get that too. It is awkward, and I especially don't care for hearing about the demise of someone's dog! I'm deeply sorry anyone ever has to go through that, but I have nothing helpful to offer!
Actually, I had this very incident/conversation come up over Thanksgiving, with my brother-in-law. My previous guide dog passed away, early this year, and while I don't talk about her constantly, it's still a painful thing. I have a new dog since the summer, so maybe they assume I'm over it? My brother-in-law kept going on about their 12-year-old pet dog, who they barely pay attention to, since kids came into the picture, and all about how little time left she probably has. I thought it was really insensitive! I don't see them often, so maybe he couldn't think of a single other topic to discuss, with me, but dogs and their health issues. I managed not to fly off the handle, though, thank God. LOLAlthough I'm sure some of my reaction is just that I dislike this guy, anyway.
Oh, I loved my dog very dearly. He wasn't just a mobility tool to me. Yet, I can't deny that it was annoying to walk into a room and have everyone say, "Hi Dusty," and then as an afterthought, "Oh, hi Alicia." I know this was not confined to me. I've seen it with guide dog users repeatedly over the years. It certainly wasn't the only reason my having a dog didn't work out. In fact, as reasons go, it didn't even make the list. But I can't deny it was an annoyance. It simply comes down to that both methods of travel have pros and cons, and which way is right for someone is an individual thing.
My sister-in-law isn't even blind but had a working dog, a mascot for the place
she worked at. And even at the hospital, since that dog went most places with
her, the medical staff ignored her and talked to the dog until the lot of us got
their attention to help poor her out, she was sick. This sounds like a very
serious situation to me. Especially since in said facilities the blind and other
disabled people are already at great disadvantage. Again, my sister-in-law is
fully sighted and she had this problem.
People go complete and full fool when it comes to dogs. Portland is dog city,
where people can bring dogs into lots of places, probably not real safe for guide
dog handlers. But anyhow everyone goes googoo gaga over the dogs when they
come in.
While I'm not a guide dog user at this time, I can honestly say I don't understand what the big fuss is over people noticing the dog before they notice the person. I mean, as another poster said, why put that much stock into how complete strangers perceive you and your life? Because, to be honest, I quite look forward to the day that the attention is taken off of me and my multiple disabilities, and placed onto the dog that will be a wonderful addition to me maximizing my quality of life in more ways than a cane ever could. I realize I'm in the minority here, but that's how I feel.
When you have someone who just walks by you and says, "Hi puppy," completely ignores you and leaves you hanging, acting like you're not even there, it really gets frustrating. There are times when I've spoken up and said something, and only then, do people bother to speak directly to me.
If you are responsible for someone else, you want to be the one spoken to and
not your dog. If you are the one who is needing assistance, say in a hospital or
emergency situation, then you want to be the one spoken to, not your dog.
Again, I do not have a guide dog. But I have been the responsible party on
several occasions when people wished to entertain their fantasies rather than
respond to what I needed them to, for either Wife or Family's sake. It's a real
concern, and I think it must be greatly inconvenient, to say the very least, for
guide dog users.
When you grow up and become responsible for someone else, you will
understand why this isn't an issue of "what other people think".
You know what? Since you took it there Leo, real grownups realize that more often than not, if we want something, we as the responsible adults (or not) that we are, need to be vocal about what it is we need. In cases that we don't know, we need to be vocal about that fact, too. In cases we can't advocate for ourselves, hopefully we've been smart enough to discuss our wishes with someone beforehand, so that they're able to be a strong advocate on our behalf.
When I was lying in a hospital bed in a life-or-death situation I didn't even realize I was in, there came a point where it dawned on me that if I knew I needed a certain kind of help from people, it was my responsibility to articulate that. Well, so too, if it's really that important to people to always be recognized instead of their guide dog. If it really bothers them so much that a complete stranger who they'll probably never see again, didn't address them directly, the oweness is on them and only them, to rectify that.
Fair enough. And one reason I was glad we were there to help the sister-in-law
during that situation where she needed help at the hospital. Part of taking that
responsibility is for a great many of us to simply opt out of getting one. That
opting out is just as responsible as people who opt out of having children or any
number of other things people are responsible enough to realize that they
themselves don't want to, or cannot, manage.
So yes, and opting out is just as responsible a path to take.
I want to stress something here, and this may seem like an exaggeration, but
I am speaking directly from real life experiences. So far, it has seemed like the
people who don't understand why its a big deal that strangers treat you as if
you don't exist, have used the singular. Its always been, "why do you care if A
tranger does x". That's not the problem. The problem si that all strangers do it,
and it can prevent you from doing a lot of things. Want to make friends? You'd
better get used to do ing it via the dog. Want to ask that cute boy over there for
his number? You'd better hope he wants to see the dog again. Want to get that
pretty girl's name? Better wait until she gets done asking what the dog's name
is, and utterly forgetting to ask what yours is. Want to take a cab ride in piece?
Good luck, you're gonna have to hear about every dog that driver has ever seen
or heard about. Want to have a quiet dinner? Better wait until after the waitres
gets done asking about your dog, and offering him water, and talking to him
under the table. Did you manage to get into the table without having to be
asked all sorts of questions because you were walking with a friend perhaps?
Well, you won't escape without it, because you have to stand up, and bring out
a big dog from under the table, and you will invariably hear that stupid question
"aw, where did he come from? I didn't even notice him." Want to walk to the
coffee shop down the street in peace? Haha, silly you, thinking you can walk
places without getting stopped or molested all the time. You have a dog now.
You have to answer questions about it.
That doesn't even take into consideration the fact that if you're too nice to the
people petting him, they'll keep petting him, but if you're too rude to them,
you're the jerk, even though they're the one doing something wrong. people
expect you to always be open to having your dog petted, because its a dog, and
people act as if they've never seen one before. There's no good way to say no.
Say, "Sorry, but no" and you're being too nice, they'll pet him anyway. Say "no"
and you're a dick who just wants to kill everyone's fun. And that's assuming
they ask first anyway. More often than not, they talk to the dog before asking if
they can, and if you tell them not to pet the dog, they still talk to the dog, which
also distracts the dog.
So, this issue can't just be brushed off as no big deal. Its a big deal.
Well, said Cody.
I'm sorry that so many of you feel it's a big deal--just goes to show that everyone is different, including how they choose to react to things.
Cody is spot on. It's also a big deal because if someone yells come here, starts whistling, making cute noises at my dog then I am in danger. No other way of looking at it.
It's also a matter of respect. I feel like having a dog should not negate the fact that I deserve it.
Chelsea neither you nor I have been tested as in we haven't had guide dogs.
Sure, I've seen the incident with my sister-in-law's dog at the hospital, and
sure, I remember getting stopped and asked a ton of question when I was
taking her puppy for a pooper walk ... even after I kept saying it wasn't mine
and it really needed to go to the bathroom, so please excuse me. People lose
their freakin' minds when they see a dog.
Cody, extremely well-written as you often do.
I am still curious as to why: Why is it people just lose it when they see a dog?
Do they do this to cats too? I guarantee you they don't seem to with birds. I
used to sun my birds by taking their cages outside sometimes, and only a few
people would make comment. Most would just walk by cages of colorful birds
tweeting and sometimes saying hi to them and wouldn't react the way they do
with a dog. Exceptions being fellow bird people or curious types.
But as soon as I took my sister-in-law's puppy out the front door to the
sidewalk, me not being a trained handler and it a puppy, heading for the park to
get a pooh in, everyone seemed to be grabbing for it, asking about it, cooing at
it, to the point that for awhile I put it up on my shoulders and walked through
the crowd. Granted this was a downtown area and I don't even know if you're
supposed to do that to puppies, though her family didn't seem to mind once
they knew, and the pup didn't seem to mind or try to get away.
Anyway, I do wonder why it is people are like that with dogs. And yet few even
notice if you have a bird, even a big bird on your shoulder. Although I did have
one funny instance of that, for the most part nobody says, "Aww, cute birdie,
can I pet your bird?"
Of course nobody takes birds into restaurants unless you're setting up an aviary
in there or something. But just outside, either in a cage or on the shoulder with
a chain going from its ankle band to your wrist, more to keep them from getting
away if they get spooked.
I'd think it was a blind thing about the dogs, but Portland being a very dog-
friendly city, people are crouching in front of dogs tied up outside coffee shops,
to pet and talk to dogs that aren't even theirs. People just lose their minds when
it comes to a dog, I just don't see why I guess.
I agree with Cody and others that the way people treat you when you have a
dog is a huge deal. The first thing I noticed after I gave up my dog was sigh,
peace and quiet.
Leo you raise an interesting question as usual. Do you think it could have
anything to do with the fact that humans and dogs have coexisted so closely for
so long?
I wonder about that. What is it that people see visually that immediately draws
them to the dog? Or are there blind people who are immediately drawn to
strange dogs as well? Dogs do have a relatively complex set of body language
gestures, which is probably in part why I don't understand what they want, they
don't communicate in a way I can tell without seeing them.
Birds, on the other hand, even fly by ear most times, so their calls, songs, and
even wing flaps communicate things without you having to see them.
Oh yes, I'm drawn to dogs that way, especially large breed dogs, but I'd never approach someone's dog without asking--challenge though it is! So I do get why people want to say hi to mine. That doesn't mean I am okay with it, or just stand by while they distract my pup. This stuff is just not a deal breaker, on having a guide, though. I'll live with it, because I want a dog in my life.
I do really think most of it's a curiosity about how we do things, though. Because I kid you not, every single time I'm out somewhere, and I pull out my Braille Edge and start reading, someone will come up and ask what it is, is that braille, yada yada. They just can't resist, no matter how busy I may look, it's apparently okay to interrupt. It's the same as the dog questions, because once they get their answer, they walk off. And the Braille Edge isn't cuddly and sweet, to make up for this annoyance. *grin* But I'm not giving up my Edge, either.
Well, I've been working dogs for just about 20 years and the huge thing, besides the difference in travel is that having a dog really ramps up the blindness issues with the genral public. All of those negative stereotypes about how we do things or can't do things are on the tip of their tongue when you have a cane. But when you use a dog, it's open season. People have assumed my dog takes care of me even though uh, she's a dog. she doesn't speak or read English, or any other human language fluently and has no opposable thumbs and would drink out of the toilet if I let her, so how the hell does she take care of me? I've had Cody's issue with being the bitch when I don't give people their doggy fix. I always thank those who ask if they can pet, and then, if I have the time and the patience, try to explain as succinctly and politely as possible why it's not safe. Sometimes they get it, sometimes they don't. The only obligation I have is to myself and my dog. My dog is there to help me get from point A to point B. I have the responsibility to make sure she isn't fed unsanctioned foods or touched by every hand out there. But at least with a dog they ask these questions. No one asked me anything when I was a cane user, unless it was to freak out because they thought the cane was going to slam into something. I never had anyone want to touch my cane because for most people, the cane is the ultimate signature of being blind, and no one wants to associate with that unless it's to pray over that person with that nasty cane.
Naturally, the doggie is cute, but what this need to touch really emphasizes is that we're not entitled to the same type of consideration. I'd never walk up to someone and start touching them, or their dog or even their child. Maybe the closest comparison would be how some pregnant women have had to contend with strangers wanting to touch their bump and ask the proverbial "When are you due?", etc. questions.
I got back from training with my third dog six months ago. We had a lecture in class about how to handle the general public. Those of us who had been handlers for years all stressed the same thing: Education is important, but safety is tantamount. A new dog user needs to find their voice and learn to fight their battles. If someone thinks you're abusing your dog because you gave it a leash correction or because they think your starving the dog, you can very sweetly explain that a correction, assuming this is a regular leash correction, is like a tap on the shoulder to get someone's attention. or very sweetly tell them guide dogs are like athletes; they need a good quality food and need to be in shape to do their job safely. Then, if they won't shut up, give them your guide dog school's number. that's what they have public relations departments and graduate services ofices for.
You do need to get used to letting stupidity run off your back. Sometimes this is hard, but for me, at least, moving smoothly down a sidewalk or through a crowd makes that something I'm willing to deal with.
Oh, and Cody, I've had people be shocked when my dogs come out from under the table and I take it as a complement. If my dog has managed to curl up in a corner or under a table and I'm able to order my food and have a two hour lunch without anyone knowing she's there I'm happy. What more could a dog user ask as an advertisement for having a guide dog?
Well, I've been working dogs for just about 20 years and the huge thing, besides the difference in travel is that having a dog really ramps up the blindness issues with the genral public. All of those negative stereotypes about how we do things or can't do things are on the tip of their tongue when you have a cane. But when you use a dog, it's open season. People have assumed my dog takes care of me even though uh, she's a dog. she doesn't speak or read English, or any other human language fluently and has no opposable thumbs and would drink out of the toilet if I let her, so how the hell does she take care of me? I've had Cody's issue with being the bitch when I don't give people their doggy fix. I always thank those who ask if they can pet, and then, if I have the time and the patience, try to explain as succinctly and politely as possible why it's not safe. Sometimes they get it, sometimes they don't. The only obligation I have is to myself and my dog. My dog is there to help me get from point A to point B. I have the responsibility to make sure she isn't fed unsanctioned foods or touched by every hand out there. But at least with a dog they ask these questions. No one asked me anything when I was a cane user, unless it was to freak out because they thought the cane was going to slam into something. I never had anyone want to touch my cane because for most people, the cane is the ultimate signature of being blind, and no one wants to associate with that unless it's to pray over that person with that nasty cane.
Naturally, the doggie is cute, but what this need to touch really emphasizes is that we're not entitled to the same type of consideration. I'd never walk up to someone and start touching them, or their dog or even their child. Maybe the closest comparison would be how some pregnant women have had to contend with strangers wanting to touch their bump and ask the proverbial "When are you due?", etc. questions.
I got back from training with my third dog six months ago. We had a lecture in class about how to handle the general public. Those of us who had been handlers for years all stressed the same thing: Education is important, but safety is tantamount. A new dog user needs to find their voice and learn to fight their battles. If someone thinks you're abusing your dog because you gave it a leash correction or because they think your starving the dog, you can very sweetly explain that a correction, assuming this is a regular leash correction, is like a tap on the shoulder to get someone's attention. or very sweetly tell them guide dogs are like athletes; they need a good quality food and need to be in shape to do their job safely. Then, if they won't shut up, give them your guide dog school's number. that's what they have public relations departments and graduate services ofices for.
You do need to get used to letting stupidity run off your back. Sometimes this is hard, but for me, at least, moving smoothly down a sidewalk or through a crowd makes that something I'm willing to deal with.
Oh, and Cody, I've had people be shocked when my dogs come out from under the table and I take it as a complement. If my dog has managed to curl up in a corner or under a table and I'm able to order my food and have a two hour lunch without anyone knowing she's there I'm happy. What more could a dog user ask as an advertisement for having a guide dog?
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm proud of my dog for being able to do that. I love
the fact that he can just curl up and not be noticed. What I don't like is the fact
that I stand up, grab the leash, toss my jacket on, and I'm just about to head
for the door, but wait, I now have to answer thirty questions before I can be
allowed to leave. I either can't walk in or can't walk out of a place without
having to play lets quiz the blind guy. Its annoying.
Leo, I grew up around dogs, not to mention I'm gonna become a guide dog user down the road. So, what I said in my first post still stands--even when I'm a guide dog user, I know I'll treasure the difference between a dog versus my two canes. I'm not saying there will never be any annoyances. I'm simply saying that, as I said previously, this is an example of how everyone handles things differently.
Well, congrats on your upcoming guide dog.. And I hope you are matched with a
really compatible one.
Thank you--I'm excited about it, because it will be duely-trained. Meaning, it will help me with guide work, but it will also be an assistance dog.
The reason I've decided to get one, aside from the fact that I get far too much attention with my two canes, is because of how my mobility has drastically changed after having this last surgery. I have severe balance issues, severe dizziness, and I have trouble picking things up that I have dropped. So, I was able to find a school that will train a dog to help me with all those things combined.
But, back to the topic at hand: out of curiosity, do guide dog schools talk much about what happens when the human with a dog has a health problem that leaves them unable to work their dog for a time?
Not to derail the question. But I'm really glad someone has been able to figure
out how to train a dog to do this for you. I've helped my Wife after surgery,
even got chewed out something fierce by this medical chick because I picked
the Wife up who is bigger than me. Apparently they got specific people and
ways to do that. Just to say that I am really glad they got a dog training method
to do this for you. You're contending with a lot, it hard enough for most people
who've had an operation but yours is more serious.
Not in my experience chelsea. In my experience they expect you to be generally
healthy enough to use and care for your dog.
True, my school didn't address that, either. Just be patient, when you do get back to working the pup, because it's been a while. He'll probably be interested in sniffing everything you pass by, just generally a little distracted. That happens when you don't work them often.
Silver, no need to answer the multitude of questions. Keep walking and say something like, excuse me, but I need to catch a bus. Sorry, I'm in a hurry. Anything like that. And if you're far enough away, pretend you didn't hear the question. Just keep moving.
Cody, there's no need for your snarky attitude towards my question. I am asking something I would like answered if possible, from someone who takes into consideration, as you apparently haven't, that things happen health wise that are out of our control (like emergency brain surgeries, for example). So, I was just wondering if anyone had been through something that extreme or close, who has had to not work their dog for a time, due to unforeseen circumstances. Cause I know that does happen...
Of course it happens Chelsea, and some schools will want to take your dog
back if the recovery time is going to take months. But what I said wasn't
snarky. They expect you to be healthy enough to take care of your dog. They
want you to be healthy enough to work them as often as possible. If there is a
bi chance that you will have to be bedridden for an extended time, I would
suggest forgoing the guide dog.
Cody, to me, what you said was snarky--I know what is expected of me in having a guide dog, but I also know that at some point in time, could be months from now, or years, there will come a time when I will be unable to use it. However, I'll deal with it when it comes up. I'll also ask the school I'll attend, because they will probably be more compassionate towards my situation anyway.
Well, then asking your question here didn't serve much purpose, did it
Chelsea? If you're going to ignore any answers that disagree with your
preconceived ideas, why ask the question at all?
What I wonder is, is it possible for someone like Chelsea to have the dog, and
have someone who she knows and the dog knows to look after it while she's
sick? Even taken it on exercises for staying fit as a guide? I don't know if people
do that or not, but it seems possible.
It depends on how long she's going to be laid up Leo. If she's just in the
hospital for a night or two, then absolutely. They wouldn't be able to work the
dog, but they'd be able to walk it and get it excercise. If she's going to b
recovering for months, then probably not. The dog would lose its bond. Its not
just a question of it getting commands and following them.
I can't say what anyone else's experience will be, we're all individuals, dog and people, so yes, it's a good idea to ask the school about this. It's to your advantage that you know this is a possibility, and can plan for it.
A month after I got my second dog, I had an emergency surgery which made it impossible for me to work her for about two months. I didn't know I would need this surgery, before getting her, or I might have postponed getting a dog.
Someone else had to take her outside for me for a few weeks. It was so early on with her, I was worried about her skills deteriorating, and how that might affect our bond. I spent time with her, letting her cuddle up next to me in bed, playing a little, in the house as I could manage. When she did work again, I kept my expectations low, and started with a very short trip around the block in our neighborhood, partly because I wasn't yet physically strong, at that point.
It took some gentle reminders, but everything was fine, and she hadn't forgotten her training at all.
To answer the orrihinal poster's question, things I wish I would have been told before getting a dog is how people always aall to him, pet him, try to feed him, and like many others on here said, they don't respect my authority as a handler. I was also never prepared for my dog suddenly not wanting to work, or my dog getting distracted when he sees my family members. I thought I was ready and I wasn't. The trainers were telling me that he loves working and couldn't wait to work. About 3 years after getting him, he turns his head away when I want to put the harness on and he doesn't get up if I get his leash and call him, he doesn't seem to want to come if I'm about to put the harness on.
Cody, it isn't that you disagreed with me; you didn't disagree with me, given that I said nothing that you could disagree with.
What I take issue with Cody, is the fact that you're being snarky--I, as someone who has never used a guide dog before, am being smart by preparing for the time I will need to give my dog back, or whatever the case may be. Even though I'm only preparing to some extent, it's better to have that knowledge now, instead of trying to figure things out at the last minute, when my focus should be elsewhere.
Anyway, I didn't mean to derail the topic; I just thought it might present some good discussion.
It depends Chelsea. I know I'm from the UK, and things are different here, but I'll try and explain a little and hopefully this will help you, even if it's just to give you an idea of how you might want to handle it.
There are people who have dogs that get sick. That could be anyone, but usually here it is older people. And the school knows that. So there are a few ways of dealing with it and it all depends on you and the kind of dog you have.
First, you could get a friend or family member to walk the dog. Make sure they are someone you really trust, who you know won't bend the rules. They of course can't put the dog in harness, but they can still walk it and enforce rules like no sniffing, stopping at roads etc.
Alternatively, you could ask the school if there is someone local who knows about these things. It's easier here because the school is divided into regions so there is always a trainer quite nearby. If there is, you could request that they have your dog during recovery periods, or, if you still need the dog for the assistance work, that they walk the dog.
It is possible to not work your dog for a number of weeks. I've left Isla for 3 weeks without working her and she was fine. Some dogs wouldn't be, others will. But hopefully that is something the school considers when they give you a dog.
Obviously you need to make sure that it works for both you and the dog. If you get given one that is overly distracted, it may be more difficult as they need constant reenforcement, and someone else may not be as good at that as you are.
I hope this helps a bit. Sorry, it's hard to offer advice without knowing what kind of dog you will have. But yes, it is possible, you just have to be careful and make sure your school are on board and giving you support.
Don't be afraid to ask for help. You need to make sure you are getting everything that will make the experience a positive one.
I had two dogs, and my experience is similar, but my reaction to it quite different.
First, I had a friend Doug that allow me to work his dog a couple times.
We were hanging out, and it was my turn to go get beer.
He said, take the dog! He explained generally how to tell her directions, and he told me once I was at the store to tell her beer! She’d take me to the correct Dorr for the kind we wanted.
Sometimes when we were in the office we worked, he’s say, walk the dog some.
I really enjoyed this.
He also would to silly things. When people spoke to his dog, answer. Smile. Ah, silly college boys.
Okay, so when I got mine all these things you all are bothered by simply didn’t bother me at all.
The best lesson I learned from my first trainer was to relax.
She told me your dog is beautiful, and all the things people were going to want to do.
She felt it was good to allow the dog some social, but if I was crossing a street, or whatever ultimately, I’m boss and it was my responsibility to keep my dog’s mind on the job.
I never felt bothered by people speaking to the dog, not me, or any of this.
I’d say Chelsea’s right. It is how you perceived it.
Most times my dog and I were moving so fast, the person would need to trot to keep up if they wanted to talk about him. Lol
Sometimes I’d do it, sometimes I’d say have a nice day, I’ve got places to be and go.
Polite, friendly, but firm I guess.
If I sat to eat, I’d put my dog near the wall so people couldn’t get at them easy.
If they crawled under the table, I’d know it.
Sweet on the pretty girls, I’d just talk to them for the dog. Hahaha.
Pretty soon it makes people laugh, and you’ve got a conversation going.
I never felt people were putting me in danger or any of that stuff.
I had drills given to me to do with my dogs every few days.
They even drove a car at the dog to teach me how it would react to that sort of situation.
Trainers called the dog as we crossed the street, and would call me on it if I allowed it to be distracted.
Maybe it is the school and how well they train for life and such.
Chelsea, my school required a health report and voucher from a doctor before I could train.
I guess if a doctor deems you healthy enough, or fit enough, you’ll be fine.
Maybe I'm just not an uptight sort of person. I don't know.
I respect others feelings on this, so don't get me wrong. These things just weren't anything to me.
forereel, find the beer? Really? You are pulling all four of our legs, right? LOL
Yeah, officially, you're not supposed to work with someone else's dog. But I've tried. Two of my dogs wouldn't budge for anyone else, just sat down, even though the person was well known, to them. Loyal girls! *smile* One dog would walk, but she needed a lot of encouragement to guide someone else. So not anything that was repeated, after the initial experiment, and not anything I'd ever try, crossing a busy street, or any unpredictable place.
We only had about 3 blocks to go. My friend knew if anything went wrong I would bring her back on her lead.
I took my cane just in case.
Maybe his dog was as crazy as we were.
She worked like a champ. Lol
Told her beer, she took me to the door. hahaha.
I think he'd worked this with her many times though.
You know, my first dog would lead my girlfriend. She was sighted, but he'd work for her. Lol
I'm not sure the dogs really know we can't see. One of the GEB trainers even said this, when I was most recently there, that they can't be sure if the pups understand that. It's an interesting question. What do you all think? (Oh, maybe this is a good topic for another thread.)
That's a good story, though,re the beer run. Hah ha!
Yep, my first experience of working a guide dog was with a friend's lovely yellow lab, for about two blocks. She pulled a bit too hard for my comfort; as it turns out, all my pups have been about 20 pounds smaller than that dog was, so I see why, now. if it had been a longer trip I couldn't have kept up with her, but still, I was so impressed at how quickly I could walk and how seamless it was, compared to cane travel. That's what made me start to think about getting one of my own.
Find the beer? Wow! What a fantastic story. I wonder if the dog could recognize
the logo or what.
It is all interesting to me, what they might know or don't know.
Cody you don't have to waste time answering all thirty questions. I know, you think you need to be nice so people won't think that blind dude with the cute doggy is a dick, but you've got a life, too. Maybe it's just that this is my third dog and i'm able to answer most questions on auto pilot. Things like how old the dog is, what breed she is, etc. spew out of me without a huge effort while I'm getting my stuff together. Rarely do people ask anything more complex than this in these situations. If someone stops with a specific question about training, I'll try to answer if I have time, but generally I don't worry about it unless they Just. Won't. Shut. Up. then I have to make up excuses or yeah, sometimes, just back away slowly and keep nodding and/or smiling until I'm out the door. this is usually the case when I have to listen to them rattle on about how so and so had a dog like mine even though so and so's dog was a white toy poodle and not a 64 pound Lab/Golden cross. I think dealing with this unwanted attention is one of those things most dog users learn to gloss over after a while.
Chelsea, it depends on the school as far as health issues. cody's assertion that they expect you to be healthy enough to work your dog as often as possible is a bit outdated, at least in my experience with dogs. Yes, back in the day you had to be able to walk four miles an hour and put in several miles a day just to keep the dog's skills up. This is what the Seeing Eye was recommending back when I wanted a dog in the late 80's. This meant people who could benifit from a dog were shut out due to this type of requirement. Now, though Guide Dog schools are dealing with an older population and people who have other disabilities than blindness. Most of the rules they give us are generalizations. things like don't let the dog up on furniture, don't feed it table food, don't let anyone else care for it are just guide lines to follow and are good pointers for cementing your bond when you first come home with the dog. should you give your dog a whole pizza? No, but the reality is even the best dog is going to try to sneak in a snarf. My first dog was one of the smartest dogs out there, even his trainer told me so over ten years after he'd trained the dog. But he was a stealth snarfer. He could be threading us through a crowded restaurant and hoover a crumb off the floor without running me into anything or breaking his stride. On the other hand he learned routes quickly and worked flawlessly in a variety of situations for just over nine years.
Also, some schools train dogs for people who have other issues so need a caretaker for the dog, it's just not common with guide dog schools. In the past a slower dog or a dog who doesn't like a lot of variety would have been dropped from a program. Now these dogs can go to someone older who maybe doesn't walk miles a day or need to cross eight lane highways on a regular basis. dogs are like people, they have their strenghts and weaknesses.
People have had broken bones and couldn't work their dog for months at a time. But there's all kinds of things to keep the dog sharp that aren't necessarily guide work. Things like daily obedience in a variety of situations or teaching the dog to find objects keep their skills sharp and their vocabulary up to date. Yes, For Real, I believe you about the friend teaching his dog how to "find beer." There's no reason a dog can't learn a word relating to a place if you use it often enough. This is how they're trained to find curbs, doors, etc. Sure, they don't actually get what a curb is on a human level, but they recognize the pattern of speach and will learn to generalize different curbs or doors and find them. I don't think they actually get that we can't see. They get that they need to show us stuff, but they don't necessarily know why. They want you to praise them so they'll keep doing it. Some of it is also basic personality traits. My first dog was always on duty. He could be snoring loudly across the room, but if I stood up he was right there waiting. He never sprawled in the hallway so I never tripped over him. My second dog was the opposite. She was a good worker, but had no problems sprawling on the floor; she did her job, but she didn't think it was her responsability to cator to my needs. My third dog is a combination of the two, but then we've only been home for six months, so things are still fluid.
Bottom line, health issues don't necessarily mean you can't have a dog. Be honest with the school and ask questions of their graduates and staff Try to drill down past the school worship some people do. No school is perfect; they all have different ways of accomplishing the same goals and different. . . . vibes. I know that sounds wierd, but some schools are more flexible than others. also, and this is just me, but I like owning my dog. I like signing the contract when I leave the school knowing that the dog is mine. Of course, this means I'm 100% responsible for the dog's wellbeing. My school offers flea and heartworm meds at reduced price, but not
a yearly vet stipend like some schools do. that's fine. I can't expect complete ownership of an animal that cost 50K to breed, raise and train and then whine that I have to pay for vet visits.
So if you're interested in a guide dog go for it. Feel free to get in touch with me off the boards if you need more info.
Inside stores beers are usually kept in the same door on the cooler.
He just taught her to find the door. I had to open it to get the beer.
Some feel different. The bottles, or texter of the cans, but we were drinking bottled beer.
That is an interesting question as to the dogs knowing we can't see.
Maybe they just learn to do the things taught them, so it isn't a can't see thing, but an action that gets them praised.
Dogs also only see in black and white, don't they? I don't think they see colors
the way humans do.
Actually dogs do see colors, just not nearly as many as humans. Dogs' retinas have fewer cone cells and also only two types, as opposed to three types for humans.
Thanks for all the feedback guys; I appreciate the time some of you took to give well thought out honest answers.
I've already applied for the dog, so getting it is not a question--it's just that I wanted to prepare, as best I can, for the time I'll become unhealthy for a month or more again.
Thankfully I'm the healthiest I've ever been, at this point, so it's the perfect time to get a guide dog.
I'm sure the school appreciates your frankness with them.
And I'm impressed that they can get you a dog trained both as a guide and an
assistance dog.
Here's to you having the very best experience possible with this. Knowing you,
you'll make the most of it.
I say this not being a dog handler myself hehe.
Yes, I wish you the best, Chelsea. I hope you'll post about how you get on, and something about your puppy, once you meet him or her. I love hearing about these dogs. *smile*
You know, at one time, I considered taking one of these dogs who had retired.
I'm not a dog person but would have fed it, cared for it, done everything the
school said. I figured I've raised birds so should be able to give a dog a perfectly
good end of life. This was when I had property so it would have had space and a
yard.
I was under the wrong impression these dogs were like the Greyhounds, either
put down or somehow else not given a good retirement.
All I will say is, I learned that these are in fact given a retirement on par with
rescue and police dogs. That should make anyone proud of those schools. In
fact, the waiting list to foster a retired guide is so long you will probably wait a
couple years to foster one.
So, if anyone is partly concerned because of how your dog will end its life, you
can be sure these places -- at least the couple I looked into in the 90s -- really
do right by their animals at end of life.
Just in case someone was considering whether or not to get one based on the
humane treatment of these creatures. They're treated very well at the end of
their lives it appears.
I know myself -- and understand dogs better now -- enough not to get a retired
one because they are much more emotional bonding type creatures than many
of the bird species I've kept. Same reason as I've never owned a Macaw. It
wouldn't be fair to the animal. But I imagine I would have been vetted out of
the process, even the applications were pretty thorough.
Just in case anyone was wondering about end of life issues for their potential
guides. Seems these places handle their animals like the places that do search
and rescue or police dogs. They're kept well and happy until they are ultimately
euthanized or die of natural causes.
Maybe this is common knowledge in the blind community. But in case it was
not, I'd imagine it was something a potential handler would be concerned about.
Yes, they're well cared for. I'm just thankful I've been able to keep my dogs until the end, though. I would still think it's traumatic for dog and handler, to give them up at age 10, or whatever.
I don't know what the status is now, but I also looked into adopting one of the GEB dogs, before I got my first guide. I didn't end up doing that, because as you said, the waiting list is years long, and there's a pretty hefty fee involved--or at least there was, in the mid 90s. Not sure, now.
I was amazed that I finally found a school that would duel-train a dog for me, to be honest.
On a side note, if you all don't mind: I seriously think school's policies need to change to be all-inclusive, rather than exclusive. Meaning, with the different needs people have nowadays, other than guide work, their policies should reflect that reality. Because let's face it, it isn't just a reality for me, but for many, many more people in the world. Hell, the first time I spoke with the school I'll be attending, they flat out asked me what my needs were; they didn't tell me how they could train a dog, nor did they become hesitant and tell me "You don't wanna confuse the dog" as one school did. They just jumped right in and were eager to get the ball rolling for me.
I bring this up just an FYI, should it benefit someone down the road, or give you guys something to think about.
All schools would not have trainers that understood all needs.
For that reason, they don't cater to anyone.
Remember, many of these schools are run on donations. Keeping all types of trainers on staff would get expensive.
Next, they'd need to find trainers that specialize in this training.
Just some thoughts on why things are as they are now.
Having been to two different of these schools, and known many many guide dog
users, and other service dog users, I'm in favor of the schools being much much
much more restrictive than they are now. Some people, and no chelsea I'm not
saying you're necessarily one of them so calm down, but some people really
need to be told no you can't have a guide dog.
My worry, quite honestly, is for that very dizziness/balance you mentioned, Chelsea. Obviously you've got some sort of training ffor your future dog that will somehow help with this, but I'm honestly wondering how. From a practical standpoint, how are you going to avoid things like falling forward, falling on the dog, stumbling sideways and maybe giving the dog's harness a terrific yank in the process? Even if you're a small woman, that can happen.
Please understand that these questions aren't judgmental. They're honest. I'm curious as to how that will work.
Leo:
From way way back you asked about why people are nuts about dogs. Frankly I think it's because most people have seen friendly dogs and assume that all dogs, particularly dogs in public, are friendly. It also helps that dogs are social animals who generally seem to enjoy human companionship, so it's not like the average dog is giving everyone death-glares on approach.
I'm probably one of these people who should have been denied a guide dog.
With a cane, I know when to turn off of one path and onto another by feeling for sidewalks, landmarks etc, but with a dog I received almost none of that input. The trainer didn't offer many suggestions as to how I could obtain the input I needed. There were no discussions about smell, echolocation or any other clues I might have used to know where I was. We just came back to the same question over and over - how do I know when to give the dog an instruction if I don't know where I am? She said other handlers seemed to intuit how to work with the dog and she was surprised when I often failed to do this.
I mostly stuck to working the dog in familiar places because getting lost with a dog was a much bigger ordeal than it ever was with a cane.
Shep. A lady I knew for a while had a dog that could help her.
She had similar balance issues as Chelsea does.
I'm not sure if these were the same.
Her dog would lean in to her to help her support herself.
The dog was good sized, about 100 pounds, and she was smaller, around the same.
If it sensed she was falling away, it pull her.
The dog would also pull so she could regain her footing.
Befcause I'm not sure of Chelsea's condition, only what I've been told, I can't say.
But, I can say this type training is vary possible.
How about that? Smile.
Pretty slick.
I've seen veterans with PSD having dogs that help them, lean into them and stuff. They've got mobility issues and have to lean on the animal. I suspect they probably have to pair them up wqith a robust animal who can handle it, not some slender showdog.
While I agree that guide dogs aren't for everyone, a trainer telling a potential student that "we don't wanna confuse the dog" is ridiculous.
I mean, excuse me for having multiple disabilities that ask for a duel-trained dog, but I didn't ask to be like this and I won't allow people to make me feel any worse about it than I already do--and that's why I said what I did, because it's about being sensitive to the needs of others.
Quite frankly, I wouldn't have wanted to go to that school, given the vibes I got; I was just shocked that they claimed to custom-train dogs, but when I talked with them about having the needs I do, they shot me down.
Well, so much for custom-training dogs, I guess. *Shrugs*.
Greg, Wayne is right on--I'll add that I'll be getting leg braces in the not-too-distant future which will help with my balance, dizziness and confidence. I doubt it'll get rid of the dizziness or balance issues altogether, especially since they've gotten worse after this recent brain surgery, but having the braces will be much more of a help than just the dog alone. (Not that anyone will comprehend that, cause it's hard to grasp if you haven't lived it or been around someone who has. However, you asked, so I answered as best I could.
Also, forgive me for saying so Greg, but maybe you should educate yourself on the wide arrange of things that dogs are capable of doing to help people such as myself navigate life much easier and more efficiently than we do with a cane.
Just because it seems impossible to you, or seems like my issues are too complicated to handle, trust me, if they can train dogs to alert people with diabetes to a low blood sugar (which they do), if they can train dogs to retrieve people's laundry (which they do), if they can train dogs to help people with PTSD as Leo mentioned they do, they can probably train dogs to do just about anything a person needs.
This is one reason I stick to my guns that there should be more training available for people in my type of situation, or different types of situations.
I hear what Wayne is saying, but it's a real shame that only one school will duel-train a dog in the ways I need one to be trained. Maybe others don't agree, but I do feel fortunate to have at least found the one.
I don't know if it is a matter of only one school, but people with the ability to train a dog in your area.
It isn't like they have a school for trainers were they select the area they want to train in.
I'd guess it is more a matter of the schools board deciding what they'll do, or someone that donates to that school specifying a dog with specific trates to be trained there.
I thought there was a school in Illinois that did the sort of training you need.
Some people put out the word they need a dog trained specificly, but in these cases, they must pay for the cost.
I'd also think that to get paid in this business, specializing is difficult, because how many people are going to have that need?
Maybe 1 or 2 schools covers the gap?
It is all interesting.
I agree with chelsea and cody. More schools need to include people with aditional needs, but they also need to be more restrictive, not allowing certain people to get dogs. It could work both ways.
Sorry to dog lovers I don't mean to depersonalize dogs here, but:
Chelsea if you came to me and asked me for a technical solution which, for whatever reason, I could not provide, I would be remiss as an engineer to do anything but tell you that I didn't have the tools to do it.
Software engineers of any salt are usually specialized, as is true for any number of areas.
So, if the same is true for dog trainers, it makes sense to me that a given trainer may not have the specialty to get you a multi-purpose dog with the specific combination of skills attached.
Maybe their version of multipurpose dogs involve blind and deaf, while you need one for blind and mobility.
I can't say, as I don't know what it takes to train a dog and deal with conflicts between two systems if those conflicts exist. Certainly I could see a situation where a robotics company could come up short for one set of skills and provide for another.
Surely there is a way to say things, and maybe they should have done better. But maybe there is a technical reason why one school has the ability to do this and the other does not.
I'm just glad I learned of the cons before deciding not to get one. I don't want the cleanup, or the extra attention from people when I'm out and about, and the loss of tactile feedback that a cane will give. I totally get what Alicia said about that even though I've never walked with a dog.
Here what happens is guide dogs will partner up with another organisation that does know how. For example, hearing dogs. And both a guide dogs and hearing dogs trainer will have input. It works well and makes sense.
Chelsea, my ignorance was precisely why I asked what I did in my last post. I didn't ask because I was convinced it wouldn't work. I asked because obviously it does work, at least some of the time, and I wanted to understand how. Because a few facts really jumped up and bit me when I sat down and thought about it myself:
1. If you have to lean on a dog or it has to lean on you a lot, it's seriously going to fuck with the dog's skeletal structure after awhile, and you might end up shortening the animal's life and making it considerably harder in the bargain.
2. If you fall heavily on the dog while it's trying to correct your balance, one little mistake could mean a broken spine or broken neck for the animal.
3. The best training in the world is not perfect. If you don't kill a dog outright by falling on its neck or back, you might injure it some other way and, in a moment of panic and pain, it might bite you. And an animal big enough too not only support you but also help you regain balance is more than capable of tearing out your throat, crushing one of your hands or otherwise maiming you. All of those are extremely unlikely, but not absolutely impossible.
So, I thought those things, and wondered, "Okay, so with the obvious risks and worries about the dog and user compatibility, what's the workaround?"
You're going to get leg braces which will help with your balance. This is good, and largely answers my question because it's not as if you're going to be walking hunched over with one arm draped on the dog's neck or some such. As I said before, I did write in order to ask, not to be snarky.
That said, however:
If I went into a grocery store and asked to buy headphones, I shouldn't get pissed if they don't have any. Likewise if they don't yet stock blue bananas or boned Pacific snapper fillets. While it would be hoped that anyone providing goods or services would try to be as inclusive as possible, and while I obviously wasn't there when they turned you down, Leo's dead right. If the school or organization simply isn't equipped to suit your needs, or if your needs are something they feel they can't suit no matter how hard they try, then acting as if they're doing you some hellacious disservice strikes me as a bit entitled. Guide dogs are common enough. Mobility dogs are less common than that. I imagine that a dog that can do both might be quite rare indeed, especially because that's two sets of training the animal goes through. This doesn't mean you don't have a right to ask, it doesn't mean you can't try, and it doesn't mean that people should give up and leave you hanging high and dry. It does mean, however, that you're in a fairly uncommon position and should respect that fact.
You've not had a pet dog I guess of size Shep.
Dogs are pretty sturdy. As a 90 pound kid, I've run playing with a big German Shepard and I tell you, I could flip over it's back, or it could knock me down just pusing me.
They use specific breeds for this work, and there big animals.
Chelsea's not going to be floppy, or completely unstable, but even if she fell across the dogs back, it won't hurt the dog.
I suspect the dogs going to move. It can see. Smile.
Also when walking with a guide, you are a bit at the back of it.
Wayne, I grew up around Great Danes. We're talking hundred-and-forty-plus-pound dogs. If you fall across a dog's back or neck the wrong way, you can snap it, easily. I've never had it happen, but I've also never slipped and fallen bodily across a dog's back or neck either. Again, I'm not saying it's easy to do, only possible.
Sure, most of us who've owned bigger dogs have probably horsed around with them, tripped on them, stepped on them, done whatever the hell, and not had anything horrible go wrong. But when you throw iffy balance into the mix, it made me wonder. And that's the key word. Wonder. At no point did I say "No, Chelsea shouldn't do this" or "Chelsea's an idiot for trying this". I simply asked how. Because my first thought when I considered this is "Jesus, I hope the handler and the animal can actually make that work. If so, that's awesome."
Yes, awesome. Trained dogs can work miracles kind of. Smile.
She'll be able to walk about easy without worries.
That to me is fantastic however you slice it.
Leo and Greg: it isn't the fact that the trainer from one school told me they couldn't train a dog in the way I need that bugged me. It was the fact that that particular school outright states that they custom-train dogs for mobility-related issues, in addition to guide work for blindness.
That's what is wrong with that situation, and I'm sure anyone in their right mind would agree.
Greg, the scenarios you presented where myself or my future guide dog get severely hurt, are beyond silly. Sure they could happen, but the chances are slim to none. Because first of all, you don't understand the first thing about balance issues, and how they actually look/pan out in one's life.
That isn't meant to attack you, but to encourage you to think realistically, rather than in scenarios that are like "This could happen, some way, somehow, but not likely. Yet, I'll still present them anyway, cause oh shit oh shit oh shit this woman is putting an animal's life in danger with her balance issues."
To explain myself a bit more Greg, and anyone who is curious: I don't flop around at all, nor do I physically lean on objects or people very much. Believe it or not, I have what most refer to as a lite touch. Some people might hold onto objects and other humans for dear life, but I'm not one of them.
My balance issues are more in the way I stand and walk; they don't extend to me putting anyone's life in danger. And quite frankly, if they did, someone who knows me should put me in my place and tell me I shouldn't be out and about. However, that's as far from the truth as anyone could get.
In another board, Chelsea, you spoke about closing a fridge door with only one hand, and how it would mess with your balance. Because you used a support cane at that time, as I understand it, having something from the fridge or freezer in one hand with your cane in the other was making it hard to close the door.
This suggested to mme that you weren't capable, say, of using your elbow or wrist or forearm to give your fridge or freezer door a shove without compromising your balance. This doesn't make you floppy but it does suggest that your balance was iffy. Obviously nothing wrong with that.
So that's why I asked what I did about you and a dog. Because if your balance is as shaky as that other board made it look, then you are a risk to yourself and to a dog if you're out and about, unless the support provided by a mobility dog somehow shores up some of those balance issues while adding minimal risk to both you and the animal.
Leg braces, as I said, will probably do a lot of this all by themselves; they might allow you to keep upright more reliably, at least.
I do not find it hard to believe that mobility dogs exist, or that people like yourself can use them. Perish the thought. I worry, and have concerns, is all. Rather than wanting to be convinced, I want to be taught. See the difference? I'm not starting from "you can't". I'm starting from "How do you?".
And okay, thanks for clarifying the bit about the school saying they couldn't provide the mobility dog even though that's what they advertise. My only thoughts are either 1. your particular mobility circumstances mean that a dog couldn't help you much, or 2. your mobility plus your blindness being compensated for by the same dog is not something that school was able to provide. As I said before, getting one dog for each is probably a lot easier than getting one dog that does both. Perhaps that's where the confusion stems from. Or hell, perhaps I'm just not getting that part of it. Maybe they advertise being able to provide mobility dogs for the blind, then shot you down out of hand. In which case, that's shitty.
Greg, I don't see that you are operating from a place of wanting to be taught. You just brought up, for example, something completely unrelated I said in another post, and made an assumption based on the details in that post.
Since you did so though, I'll address that specifically. Yes, my balance issues at this time do not allow me to use my elbow to close a refridgerator door without at least holding onto something first to stabilize myself. However, that doesn't, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that I would be putting myself or an animal at risk, in having a guide dog. Clearly, you haven't grown up with dogs your entire life, as I have.
There were dogs in the houses I lived in all the way from infancy till I was a grown adult and moved out of my parent's house--I could back up what Wayne has been saying by telling you stories about how every single dog my family ever owned has sensed my differences, if you will, and moved out of the way when they saw me coming, not to mention that they were all very protective of me as well. Every, single, one, of, them.
They weren't taught, they simply did something because they could see and I couldn't.
So worry on, mister, but know that those worries are every bit unfounded as they are silly. Because truthfully, what you see in my writing is not as horrible, or compromising to myself or others as it obviously seems to you--I've lived with these disabilities my entire life, and much like blindness, I know how to get things done and am probably more self-sufficient than most people at doing so. Therefore, unless you actually meet me, and see how I function, you have no right or reason to be concerned.
As for the guide dog school dismissing me, yes it was out-of-hand. They told me they train dogs for people's balance issues, then when I explained I'd also need help retrieving dropped items, they very rudely told me that they didn't wanna confuse the dog. But anyway, that's over and done; I just wanted to try and clarify things.
Also Greg, it is not as hard as you may think to duel-train a dog. It's rare, sure, but not any more difficult than training a dog to do guide work.
Like with everything, I'm sure it has its challenges, especially if they're working with a dog who turns out not to be fit for being a service animal. However, the dogs who do end up working out, work really well, and live for the work they do.
When one wishes to be taught, and has an open mind, one uses logic as much as possible in most cases. This also means remembering other facts which may be relevant, and using them as you understand them.
I brought up the other board, and your freezer-door thing, purely as a mmeans of contextualizing my understanding. I was essentially telling you what I knew of your balance issues, with the full knowledge that my comprehension was imperfect. Of course it's imperfect. I don't live with you. I don't talk regularly with you in any meaningful way. I simply offered up the shreds I do have as a means of giving you background. Because, to me at least, a person who would need to hold onto something in order to push a fridge or freezer door shut might have issues with mobility greater than any dog can compensate for. Fridge and freezer doors aren't all that heavy, and you're -pushing them closed. Wouldn't you struggle even more with doors on buildings, which are far bigger, far heavier and require pulling? That's just one example.
As stated before, I lived with dogs pretty much all of my life. There were two and three-month periods where we didn't have an animal, but mostly we did, and three of them were Great Danes. These are one of the biggest dog breeds known, and I've wrestled playfully with two of the three (the other was too old when we got her, and was a rescue to boot). If they were awake and saw me coming, they'd move most of the time. If they tripped me and I fell, they tried to move. But all of that is more difficult when 1. you're attached to the dog by a harness, 2. the dog has been trained to try and help you with mobility issues and 3. the dog is half the size of a Dane.
No, your chances of falling and killing your dog aren't huge, but they aren't utterly silly either. Just because they're statistically unlikely doesn't mean they aren't worrisome.
Regarding dropped item retrieval...that's an interesting wrinkle, and now I think I know more than I did before. In my admittedly limited experience, dogs don't usually pay attention to -who drops an item. They care if it's on the ground, period. Asking a dog to not only be a guide, but also a mobility dog, and also to retrieve items that you and only you drop? That is not anywhere near as easy as just teaching a guide dog. The dog has to constantly be aware of all kinds of things, and like it or not, dogs just don't have the same intellect as people. If you could get a raven, a horse or a dollphin to guide you - maybe an ape or an elephant, for that matter - then you might have that level of sheer intellect and reason, but a dog is probably going to struggle with it.
I'm not saying it can't be done. Heaven knows it's probably already been done. I'm also not saying you shouldn't try, or shouldn't hope. You do have a right to travel as independently as you can. At worst, I'm saying only that you've got a pretty stiff challenge for any would-be canine partner.
None of this constitutes naysaying. None of this runs counter to my claim that I am trying to be taught. If I'm supposed to disregard other facts I've learned, please tell me why. If I'm supposed to know more than I know, then please let me know. I want to understand.
Fair reply Chelsea. He's got a point here with the freezer door example.
No, actually he doesn't have a valid point, and here is why: because everyone's balance issues are different.
Sure, I'll give you all that you're only going off of what I post, but context makes every bit of difference--and as I also said, it's hard to really grasp the severity or how mild one's issues are unless you know them. Mine, as I've said, do not endanger anyone or anything any more than any of you all's disabilities do.
That is why, while I try to give explanations as best I can, I still know they'll probably come off as nonsensical to the lot of you, rather than help you gain understanding. Yet, I still do so, because slim as my chances are, I may actually help someone learn something along the way.
And Greg, training a dog to retrieve dropped items is not unheard of. It's been done before--obviously I know this, or I wouldn't have said that it's gonna happen for me. It's rare, sure, but doable just the same.
Okay, Chelsea, let me spell this out so we're very, very clear of differences of understanding and opinion.
Yes. Dogs can be trained to pick up dropped items. But can dogs be trained to pick up only dropped items from only one person? And if so, can that dog also be trained for mobility aid? And if so, can that same dog -also be trained as a guide doog?
All I'm saying is that with every new requirement you put on the dog, you are making the likelihood of its being successful drop significantly, and lessening the chance that someone has a dog specially prepared to meet those requirements.
Now, regarding balance issues:
Okay, so if I'm wrong about your balance, please tell me how. I'm listening.
To me, I see a person who would be unable to push a fridge door shut with a forearm or elbow, and that constitutes a serious lack of balance and steadiness. I, with good balance, can do this even if both arms are heavily burdened, so long as I'm not actually falling at the time. Hell, I can even use the object in my hand to bump the fridge or freezer door shut if the angle is right. A little nudge is not going to upset my balance, but the way you explained it on the other board, being nudged with something occupying your hand constitutes a very real possibility that you fall, or at the very least stumble or waver.
And if you're having to do this potentially while moving quickly - most dogs don't move slowly, and one of the benefits to a guide dog is quicker travel on average than a cane - it would seem to me that there's an even better chance for disaster.
This is my understanding. You know about your issues far more than I do. I am not trying to insist that my understanding trumps yours. It doesn't. But I want to know -why it doesn't. I want to understand how you can have trouble pushing a fridge door shut but feel confident in being able to get around in leg braces with a dog. What are you hoping for or expecting that dog to do in order to help you, specifically? Do you intend to move slowly? Do you still intend to use some sort of support cane with your dog, thus occupying both of your hands more or less constantly?
Greg, I'm sorry for having ruffled your feathers. I wasn't posting things with the intend of trying to explain to someone the ins and outs of my situation, especially, as I said, someone who cannot possibly begin to understand this kind of problem of someone they don't even know. I was simply adding my two cents to a discussion, and evidently things got way out of hand. That was never my intent.
Anyway, that aside, I'll try, yet again, to explain things clearly: my balance issues are not such that I flop over or even fall when trying to close a door of some sort.
Since you pay such great attention to what I say, I'm sure you'll recall that I've written a great deal about using two canes (one in one hand for blindness, and the other cane in the opposite hand for stability purposes). Both of those canes make it possible for me to completely stabilize myself, so that when I encounter a door, curb, steps, uneven terrain, ETC, I don't have the problems you seem to think I have, opening and closing doors.
As for leg braces: I wore leg braces from infancy throughout the time I turned 16 years old. I stopped wearing them due to having a neglectful parent.
So, I know that having leg braces will drastically improve my quality of life because I remember how things were for me when I wore them--I was able to get around freely and without much, if any, physical difficulty or pain. This was back when I still had some sight, so if I was really familiar with an area or house, I could walk around without any canes pretty well, as I'm sure you can do now in a familiar environment. I was able to do things easily, things that most of you probably take for granted, such as walking at a fast and confident-looking pace (whether the walking distance was small or long), washing dishes, standing in lines or while talking to people, carrying things with my hands/arms easily, stabilizing myself easily if I became unsteady for a second, ETC. I'm sure there's more I could add, if I sat here and pondered it, but you've got the main reasons.
As for what a guide dog will do for me: in having a guide dog, I'll be able to move around with more freedom than I will even in having the leg braces. I'll be able to walk at a pace of my choosing, but as I said, I love walking at a brisk pace. Having a guide dog will allow me more freedom because I will no longer be using any canes (except when circumstances require me to use one)--so in short, I'll have more fluid mobility and more opportunities all around than I have with a cane. My hands will, quite literally, be free, and I can devote more focus towards where I'm going, as well as me and my dog.
So I hope that answers your questions. No, I will not be using any canes with a dog--again, you're being silly...or maybe flat out ignorant is a better term. I hope you're able to learn something though, but if not, I don't know what else I could say to help you understand how things are, and will be, for me.
Okay then. What I think I get from this is that with leg braces, you believe you will be able to move briskly and without nearly the same sort of balance issues you possessed before. You would, if you so chose, be able to bump a fridge door shut when your hands were full, since you have leg braces and better balance.
If this is the case, then I apologize. I've been unintentionally applying old facts to future expectations. And that often does work, but I am frankly not as aware as you are of the full effects leg braces will have on your mobility and your steadiness. And that's precisely why I asked what I did.
You are mostly correct. However, I don't just believe that having leg braces will improve my balance; that is what they are designed to do: improve a person's posture, stride and overall mobility. Wearing them will not only strengthen my legs, but will force my posture to be as close to "normal" as possible, given that I currently walk in a crouched position because my knees are bent, due to not having any support. Which is another thing I'll say, is that this whole thing is about my legs not currently having the support they need, and the difference having full support will make in my life, once I have the leg braces.
I remember asking about duel training dogs when I went to school for my
current guide dog. The school I attended said they stayed awa from it because
the dog would have to choose which of its role to fill. Does it knock you off
balance, or does it keep you from walking into the street in front of a car?
That's a lot of strain on the dog, especially one who is meant to do guide work,
since guide work is one of the hardest things for a dog to be trained to do due
to the intelligent disobedience part.
So you might tell it to cross a street, it refuses, knocks you off balance, you
scold it for that, and suddenly its confused if you want it to stop you from
walking into streets, or keep you from being knocked off balance. it can't
explain to you what it was trying to do. It might not even make the decision in
the first place. So it can be a dangerous and complicated situation that a lot of
schools shy away from. Obviously this changes depending on the roles the dog
is meant to play.
An interesting point.
I never asked the lady I knew how it all worked for her.
She didn't have leg braces, so the situation was different as well.
Thankfully, not all schools shy away from it, and are able to find ways to make this happen for people. There's much more of a need for this kind of training than people realize; I'm not just referring to one's balance issues, but diabetics, people with PTSD, ETC.
It's great what dogs can do, when people are willing to train them for the various needs that exist in the world.
I'm curious. What does a dog do for a diabetic?
I've got a friend with MS who is also diabetic. I'm merely curious what a dog would do for a diabetic specifically. He has to shoot himself up occasionally with some stuff but I think that's it.
Leo, for diabetics some dogs can detect drastic changes in a persons blood sugar levels. So, they can alert that person if the level has gone too high, but normally they alert for lowered levels as that is typically more dangerous in a much shorter space of time.
These dogs are especially useful for people who do not have stable levels.
I do know a few duel trained dogs, so, whilst Cody is right to an extent, it's not actually as bad as some make it out to be. The dog has to be selected carefully, of course. And it really needs input from two specialist organisations.
Normally, for picking up an item, the dog will respond to a command word. So, if you drop something, you use that word to get the dog to retrieve it for you. So sure, it would do it for everyone, but so do guides, guide the trainers even though that person isn't blind, because they know the commands.
That's why I think schools balance the desired jobs of the dog so heavily. If they
might counteract each other, then I think the school would be right in shying
away from doing that kind of training. For example, a dog trained to guide and
alert you if your blod sugar is low wouldn't come into conflict. A dog trained to
guide you and keep you anchored might come into conflict. Which job does it
do, does it anchor you, or guide you? A dog can easily alert you and guide you.
Its why I think some schools shy away from duel training two physical needs.
Like a guide wheelchair dog, or a wheelchair anchor dog, or something like that.
But, as Chelsea said, there are schools willing to teach that. There are also
schools willing to teach handlers to feed their guide dogs raw meat, so I take
things like that with a grain of salt.
I think it's like anything, honestly. Some schools will handle duel training far better than others. So, Chelsea might look around two schools, both that say they can train a dog to meet her needs. One might be excellent and the other not so good.
I take your point, about jobs coming into conflict. I think some schools deal with the potential of this happening very well. I don't know any US duel trained dogs so I can't honestly comment about schools there, but it has worked well here.
Holly thanks for the explanation.
Cody is spot on I think. Every engineering problem that attempts to perform
dual and competing functions has this exact scenario. Cody, you could have
been in a thousand engineering meetings I've been in; your thinking here
makes complete sense to me. People think the two sets of tasks are functioning
in parallel. But in fact, it looks to me from what you said, these two sets of
tasks would compete with one another. Press the person backward to prevent
getting hit by a car, or don't push them back and possibly knock them off
balance.
Now if this was not a dog but a piece of software, we'd have to have an extra
process whose sole responsibility was to manage the priority of the two tasks.
And as any honest engineer will tell you, a product with competing functions like
this does not produce the kind of exact results we're used to putting out as a
production model. So it sounds like the compromises in the end product will
have to be known as much as possible, and then it's going to be the proverbial
middleware of the user to manage those compromises with less precision than
your typical model. I can see how a school would choose to take this on or not.
Many an engineering project gets shelved for just these kinds of reasons. At
least until some methodology can be created to bridge the two priorities
together in such a way as to minimize the conflicts. I don't know if or how you
could do that with an animal.
If it were a robot, I'd personally have it push Chelsea backwards away from
traffic and extend an extra appendage out behind her to hold her up.
But with an animal, save for some really fancy genetic engineering, you don't
get to make mods to the hardware. Just the software.
Cody's on to something here, and although the results definitely *feel* very
personal, I can completely understand a school's decision not to, from an
engineering perspective.
That being said, I do understand Chelsea's disappointment with them. I've been
that engineer who said "no" for just that sort of reason. The fact someone else
might come out and say "yes," provided they actually deliver on the solution
with a compromise Chelsea can live with, or a bridge between the two
competing priorities, is just capitalism at its finest. Engineers make mistakes,
sometimes too risky, and sometimes too conservative. So I imagine trainers at
schools can do the same thing.
And for the lust after gods and gargoyles, animal people please, I'm not really
saying your fluffy guides are just robots. I merely used the engineering tactics
to explain why it is Cody is technically right. It has to do with competing
priorities and the capacity, or lack thereof, to bridge the paradox with a
compromise that the user can live with. No more and no less.
I wish we had robotics Chelsea could use, since we could add extra appendages
and wouldn't be limited to carbon-based wetware. But we don't, and I admire
her courage in making the most of the tools we currently don't have yet.
this is a most interesting thread. I don't know where to start. so there's another holly on here? I'm turricane but my real name is holly. awesome. anyway...
why would a dog have to be trained to do two things. I know a woman who has a guide dog. she also has a little purse puppy, I forget what kind, who was trained for other issues she has. plenty of dogs can pick stuff up. they are trained for that job. we have a neighbor who has ms and she has a dog to do that and for balance too.
as for things you wish you'd been told. I've read a lot of negativity on this thread. this is valid. however, I found it to be mostly positive. I'm a very shy person. when I moved across the country to a new area where I knew no one, the dog was a great opener. of course this area is very dog centric. anyway, people who might have been concerned about a blind woman and her blind husband saw my dog and started talking. it was a great entrée and many of them are now my dear friends.
For me, mainly I wish I would have known how the dogs are perfect when the trainers show up, then you keep having issues the second the trainers leave.
Omgrider why don't you just retire the dog? You don't need anyone's permission. It's your life.
I just wanna say forgive me for causing such a raucous; my balance issues are nothing like what you all have made up in your minds, and in fact they are a non-issue now. However, I take responsibility for bringing up something that is totally over people's heads--I'm learning to downplay the fact I have a disability besides blindness because if I say I have balance issues then people think all sorts of things that are inaccurate, ignorant and flat out silly. So I'm glad to see you guys got all involved, but that wasn't my intent. I will be able to go to any guide dog school, and have applied for multiple schools as of this morning.
Or, get one from a school with a good rep.
How do I retire him if the trainers won't want to take back the harness, should I simply just stop working him and send it back when he dies or something?
Pretty much. Offer the trainers a chance to take him back and place him with someone else. If that doesn't happen, you or someone you know now owns a well-trained pet.
The dog is retired when *you* say he is. Take some ownership. What's the dilemma, here? What you do with the harness is less important. Send it back,toss it in the trash, whatever. What you need to figure out is whether you are keeping your dog, or having the school or yourself place him with someone else who will provide adequate care for him.
And if this dog isn't meeting your needs and you feel unsafe, stop working him. It's undoubtedly a stress on him to work with you, as well. It's on you to make the decisions and do the right thing for you both. The trainers aren't in your shoes; other dog handlers aren't in your shoes.